A Bit of Controvesy

[MissKringle]

I was watching the Morning Show, It's still on actually lol, but the daily question was whether to downplay Christmas, the religous side, I thought, Why on earth would you do that? If somebody suggested downplaying Hannukkah we'd never hear the end of it! Why does this controvesy revolve around Christmas and Christianity, I'm not even religous and I think it's ridiculous!

[officepro4u]

I really am not sure why they always want to take the religious part out of Christmas. Since it is celebrating the birth of Christ, why would you want to take it out? :bewildered:

Whether Christ was actually born ON Christmas day is not really that important. It's just the day that was set aside to celebrate it.

[joyful]

When things like this surface it just proves to me that the christian walk is the best and true walk. It's been going on for a very long time and will continue despite the efforts to shut it down.
Sadly even the so called "religious"community will try to shut it down but hey Jesus was born, He has a birthday and no it's not Dec. 25th but it's a day we have set aside to celebrate it and we have the right to celebrate it.

[dvdguy]

people dont like being told what to do, but they sure dont mind telling others what to do

[Minta]

people dont like being told what to do, but they sure dont mind telling others what to do

How very true!

[Billy Battles]

but hey Jesus was born,

Was he?

[whychristmas]

Well put officepro4u and joyful. I had an email from my site today with someone telling me that Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th! I've gentle pointed them to my page that explains it! http://whychristmas.com/customs/25th.shtml

[whychristmas]

Was he?

ermmm yes! Wether you believe he's the Son of God or not is a personal thing, but there's as much documented evidence that Jesus lived as that Julius Caesar did!

[Billy Battles]

There is no Historical proof outside of Religious text that supports a Historical Jesus

[joyful]

Well Billy, there is proof but most likely you would not believe it. Hey, that's ok.

CHRISTmas ummmmmmmmmmmm. Jesus isn't the myth, Santa is a myth and a lie.

MERRY CHRISTMAS or perhaps Happy Holiday would be more acceptable to you.

[dominick]

Neither Santa nor Jesus are complete myths. Both were real people; historians do not dispute this.

[Sunshine73]

I don't get it. Christmas is the religious celebration of the birth of Christ. Now, if you choose to celebrate it in a purely secular manner with Santa, trees, reindeer and no Christ child, that's perfectly fine with me. BUT. That does not negate the fact that for the Christians in the world, Christmas is very much a holiday about the birth of the Christ child, why on earth would you want or need to downplay that?

[Billy Battles]

Well Billy, there is proof but most likely you would not believe it. Hey, that's ok.

CHRISTmas ummmmmmmmmmmm. Jesus isn't the myth, Santa is a myth and a lie.

MERRY CHRISTMAS or perhaps Happy Holiday would be more acceptable to you.


Let me start off by saying that by being a true Agnostic that I neither believe or do not believe in Christ existence.

You say there is proof. Where? I have read a lot of books on this issue, arguing both sides. I have yet to see proof. No historian of his time recorded him.

Lastly I would like to say I am not here trying to start trouble with this. After I posted last time I kind of regretted it. I am not trying to offend anyone here. I know people take their Religion seriously. I however have spent a lot of time reading and researching this subject.

[Jeff Westover]

No historian of his time recorded him? What do you call "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John"? Was what they left behind not good enough for you? Or are they merely imaginary too because no historian of their time wrote about them also?

"Proof" is aplenty. I guess it is all how you define proof. If you want to see Christ's social security card, DNA sample, and a sworn video statement from him at Golgotha then yes, you're out of luck. But if you want a witness of him you can surely have one and you won't need a flash of photo ID to know the truth of Him.

I know you're not trying to cause trouble and neither am I. But you can't dismiss out-of-hand the proof much of the world accepts due to their spiritual witness merely because you have been denied a physical witness. Christmas is both a sacred and a secular holiday and here we honor both.

Is proof something you genuinely seek or something you merely "require"? I've studied this issue from both sides as well and I've decided there's more to my mind than my sole definition of how it, my mind, works. My experience has been that until you break free of your own limited intelligence and narrow scope of human experience the longer "the mysteries" will indeed remain mysterious.

[dominick]

Let me start off by saying that by being a true Agnostic that I neither believe or do not believe in Christ existence.

Someone once told me that an agnostic is just an atheist without [guts] (edited for content).
:D

Now we're saying two different things here. One can believe in the existence of a man named Jesus without believing him to be Christ, son of God.

[officepro4u]

No historian of his time recorded him? What do you call "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John"? Was what they left behind not good enough for you? Or are they merely imaginary too because no historian of their time wrote about them also?

"Proof" is aplenty. I guess it is all how you define proof. If you want to see Christ's social security card, DNA sample, and a sworn video statement from him at Golgotha then yes, you're out of luck. But if you want a witness of him you can surely have one and you won't need a flash of photo ID to know the truth of Him.

I know you're not trying to cause trouble and neither am I. But you can't dismiss out-of-hand the proof much of the world accepts due to their spiritual witness merely because you have been denied a physical witness. Christmas is both a sacred and a secular holiday and here we honor both.

Is proof something you genuinely seek or something you merely "require"? I've studied this issue from both sides as well and I've decided there's more to my mind than my sole definition of how it, my mind, works. My experience has been that until you break free of your own limited intelligence and narrow scope of human experience the longer "the mysteries" will indeed remain mysterious.


I just love the way to explain things Jeff. It is always clear, concise and well thought out. I really appreciate your posts!

Diana

[Annette1990]

To each their own, but hey I am a BELIEVER!













~I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody~ -B.C.

[kelly ann]

Ah come on now people, lets all enjoy the season no matter who or what you believe in!! :tree:

[Billy Battles]

No historian of his time recorded him? What do you call "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John"? Was what they left behind not good enough for you? Or are they merely imaginary too because no historian of their time wrote about them also?

"Proof" is aplenty. I guess it is all how you define proof. If you want to see Christ's social security card, DNA sample, and a sworn video statement from him at Golgotha then yes, you're out of luck. But if you want a witness of him you can surely have one and you won't need a flash of photo ID to know the truth of Him.

I know you're not trying to cause trouble and neither am I. But you can't dismiss out-of-hand the proof much of the world accepts due to their spiritual witness merely because you have been denied a physical witness. Christmas is both a sacred and a secular holiday and here we honor both.

Is proof something you genuinely seek or something you merely "require"? I've studied this issue from both sides as well and I've decided there's more to my mind than my sole definition of how it, my mind, works. My experience has been that until you break free of your own limited intelligence and narrow scope of human experience the longer "the mysteries" will indeed remain mysterious.

Can you than explain the 15 other Crucified Saviors who preceded Christ and some hundreds of years before Christ? How many of their stories are so similar to his?

I do not seek proof I seek answers.


Someone once told me that an agnostic is just an atheist without [guts] (edited for content).
:D

Now we're saying two different things here. One can believe in the existence of a man named Jesus without believing him to be Christ, son of God.

I have also heard that saying. I think it was Socrates who said I know I am smart because I know I Know nothing.


Just remember that Truth is not measured in mass appeal.

[JanaBanana]

You cant see Jesus, but it doesnt mean he doesnt exist or that I stop believing. You cant see the air you breath but yet I dont stop breathing.

My question would be why do you celebrate Christmas then Billy?

Many people out there claim to not believe or give it a title of Athiest or whatever, but it is amazing that when these same people are faced with death, who to they beg to spare their life? Who do they pray to to save their sick child that is on deaths door?

None of us will ever fully grasp or understand the "concept" of Jesus Christ. Our minds are little peas compared to Gods.
I just know that I dont want to be standing in line on judgement day next to the people to claim to not believe in GOD.

Jeff always says/explains it best. THANK YOU Jeff!

[dominick]

I have also heard that saying. I think it was Socrates who said I know I am smart because I know I Know nothing.


Just remember that Truth is not measured in mass appeal.


If it is indeed Socrates you are quoting, then you mangled it a bit. The quote is "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." Throwing quotes around proves nothing and only illustrates one's lack of independent thought.

Truth is oddly subjective and definitely can be changed by masses. You like your quotes... ever heard that history is written by the winners?

[Billy Battles]

If it is indeed Socrates you are quoting, then you mangled it a bit. The quote is "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." Throwing quotes around proves nothing and only illustrates one's lack of independent thought.

Truth is oddly subjective and definitely can be changed by masses. You like your quotes... ever heard that history is written by the winners?


I actually did get the quote wrong. it is supposed to be "I know I am Intelligent because I know I know nothing" ~ Socrates

History is written by the winners, also the root of the word history is His Story.

There are some quotes I like so I use them every once in a while to think that I lack independent thought because I use some quotes is absurd.

You can not change the truth you can hide or conceal it however it is still the Truth.

[officepro4u]

WOW!! Is it just me or has this whole conversation kind of took a wrong turn?

I mean, really...do we really think we are going to change each other's minds, beliefs, etc.TODAY if it's something we've believed our whole lives?

I know a healthy debate can be good, but in the spirit of Christmas...enough already!!

[JanaBanana]

I kinda look at it this way...

If I (we) are wrong, we have nothing to lose. But if you (they) are wrong you have everything to lose.

:)

[Billy Battles]

I kinda look at it this way...

If I (we) are wrong, we have nothing to lose. But if you (they) are wrong you have everything to lose.

:)

I can't be wrong because I am admitting that I don't know. Whole point was there is no Historical proof that Jesus Christ ever existed. I however am not an Atheist, I am not saying that any religion is wrong. I myself do not know.

[act_as_if]

AHHH, Santas not real!?!?!

lol.

Trying to lighten the mood, is it working?

[dominick]

I actually did get the quote wrong. it is supposed to be "I know I am Intelligent because I know I know nothing" ~ Socrates

History is written by the winners, also the root of the word history is His Story.

There are some quotes I like so I use them every once in a while to think that I lack independent thought because I use some quotes is absurd.

You can not change the truth you can hide or conceal it however it is still the Truth.

You're sort of paraphrasing again, but yes, if you want to trace the etymology of the word history, among it's origins will be the Classical Latin word historia, which means a narrative.

Anyway, the point I was making is that truth is not an absolute. Perspective is a powerful thing.

[JayIsh]

I've never seen one of these "religious" discussions end happily on the internet...Perhaps if we all agree to disagree, and respect the beliefs of each other, we can not have this one end badly!

[JanaBanana]

I've never seen one of these "religious" discussions end happily on the internet...Perhaps if we all agree to disagree, and respect the beliefs of each other, we can not have this one end badly!


:) ;)

[dominick]

No need to worry, Jay. We've got a good bunch here. There have been similar discussions here before and not one of them ever crossed the line.

I think we all know it's just a friendly discussion, right?

[JayIsh]

Whew...Glad to hear it...I saw one of these things blow up on a weather forum of all things...And it got really ugly and most of the participants ended up banned...It got just mean, nasty and hugely counter productive...I'm always the peace maker...Even with people I don't know who I see arguing or fighting...One of these days I'm gonna get my butt kicked for not minding my own business...Cheers guys!!!

jay

[dominick]

Whew...One of these days I'm gonna get my butt kicked for not minding my own business...Cheers guys!!!

I once got my nose broken as an indirect result of breaking up a fight. I think I've told this story here before...

[JayIsh]

I had a former brother-in-law who was a policeman. He used to say that the most dangerous person during any domestic dipute call was not the spouse who was being abusive and having the police called on him or her, but rather the other spouse when he or she sees the first spouse in handcuffs...It's a crazy world...I got in between two brothers once...and they both turned on me...Of course...They were my own brothers...

[Billy Battles]

I hold no hard feelings here I actually enjoy these kind of conversations. If it would make everybody more comfortable than I will "agree to disagree". Which seems weird because I didn't feel like I was disagreeing, I would have like to think that I was looking at it from a different perspective.

[whychristmas]

I've never seen one of these "religious" discussions end happily on the internet...Perhaps if we all agree to disagree, and respect the beliefs of each other, we can not have this one end badly!

Amen! Billy you asked if Jesus was born. Lots of evidence says yes a guy called Jesus (which was a very common name!) was born in Bethlehem about 6BC-ish.

Whether you believe if he's the Christ (meaning 'The Anointed One') is up to you. If you're looking for info on Jesus, you might find this interesting: http://rejesus.co.uk/the_story/question_answer/faqs/evidence.html

But agreeing to disagree can be a good thing!

[Jeff Westover]

Can you than explain the 15 other Crucified Saviors who preceded Christ and some hundreds of years before Christ? How many of their stories are so similar to his?
I do not seek proof I seek answers.

No, and why should I? Why is it that Christ is only identified with the crucifixtion? The sacrifice of Christ didn't happen on the cross. That was the murder of Christ and, frankly, it wasn't all that uncommon. Now, what happened in Gethesemane was unique and bears further study.

Answers are plain to find. Acceptance of those answers against who-knows-what criteria is not. And that's a personal thing and one I clearly understand.

For those who are distressed by this discussion and who want to move on to lighter things, I say relax. I haven't seen anything other than honesty exchanged and that, my friends, is what forums are for. These kind of exchanges, while the never result on causing one to change someone else's mind, are still healthy and I say exchange the thoughts!

Jeff

[MrsH]

That's one of the things that I love about this forum. We have thoughtful discussions on all different subjects. Good, healthy discussion is what freedom is all about! You should hear what happens when we discuss store bought vs. homemade eggnog. It gets UGLY!!!

[Jeff Westover]

That's one of the things that I love about this forum. We have thoughtful discussions on all different subjects. Good, healthy discussion is what freedom is all about! You should hear what happens when we discuss store bought vs. homemade eggnog. It gets UGLY!!!

Please...not THAT. Oh, the humanity.

[dvdguy]

EW is comin back just in time for that

[Billy Battles]

No, and why should I? Why is it that Christ is only identified with the crucifixtion? The sacrifice of Christ didn't happen on the cross. That was the murder of Christ and, frankly, it wasn't all that uncommon. Now, what happened in Gethesemane was unique and bears further study.

Answers are plain to find. Acceptance of those answers against who-knows-what criteria is not. And that's a personal thing and one I clearly understand.


The 15 other Crucified Saviors stories are similar to that of Jesus. Some are so similar that if I told you their stories without mentioning there names you would more than likely think I was talking about Jesus.

Take Krishna for example was born to a virgin mother was the son of God, his earthly father was a Carpenter, he preformed miracles,even raising the dead,was Crucified, rose from the dead,and ascended. His Story predates Christ. It goes far beyond just Crucifixion.

[Jeff Westover]

And Christ's story predates Christ's physical ministry by at least four millenia.

His virgin birth, his earthly parentage, his miraculous works, his death, resurrection and his ascension were foretold centuries before he was ever born into this work. His story predates Krishna and others whose Savior-like qualities were inspired by ancient prophecies of the Messiah. Such imitators are not new. We have people these days claiming to be the Christ.

So how then do we know that Jesus is the Christ?

We know the same way now that those who preceded him in mortality knew of him -- through spiritual intelligence and manifestation. Physical proofs, as you have so aptly pointed out, can and usually are manipulate to achieve some end.

So there is no other way.

[Montana's Santa]

Yes, Billy,
... a number of "saviors" were crucified, from the time of the Persians in 533 BC until some time in the fourth century AD -- However, they were not religious saviors but geo-political activists attempting to free their country from political domination. Even Alexander the Great is known for crucifying political rebels. Usually a punishment for slaves and the lower class, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was an attempt to demean his standing among those who saw him as a religious savior or "Messiah" and -- after his death -- crucifixion became de rigeur for executing His followers until the reign of Constantine.

But all that is moot because I know my Savior lives... His suffering on Golgotha and the cross was His effort to ransom us from our sins by taking the punishment for all mankind -- past, present and future upon Himself.

I hope and pray one day you will discover that glorious truth for yourself.

[Billy Battles]

And Christ's story predates Christ's physical ministry by at least four millenia..


The Egyptian God Horus is from Predynastic Egypt which ended in 5100 b.c.
Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Seb is also known as "Geb": "As Horus the Elder he...was believed to be the son of Geb and Nut." Lewis Spence, Ancient Egyptian Myths and Legends, 84.
He was of royal descent.
At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
Horus walked on water.
His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

All these "Gods" were not trying to fulfill a a Christ prophecy they had were from all over the World some as far away as Mexico.


Yes, Billy,
... a number of "saviors" were crucified, from the time of the Persians in 533 BC until some time in the fourth century AD -- However, they were not religious saviors but geo-political activists attempting to free their country from political domination.


These were not Geo Political saviors these were Savior Gods. Some of them thousands of years before Jesus.


I figure nobody will be, however if anyone is interested here is a web site to see some info.

www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/

www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm

[JayIsh]

I did...And found this...

The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors

Note: the scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous theists and nontheists alike; the inclusion of his The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors in the Secular Web's Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book.

Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to me...

[JayIsh]

At the risk of entering the frey that left me somewhat chilled a day or two ago, one must admit that something happend those two thousand years ago. A man, Jesus, was born and lived and died and his existence changed the world from that point until today. Our calendar is based on his life, our customs on his teachings and our daily rituals on the faith of his existence. So whether you belive him to be the Christ, our saviour (as I do) or the biggest flim-flam artist to hit the streets...Something big happend...I've done my own research...I don't necessarily believe that Jesus himself had envisioned Christianity as it has evolved, but I know he would not be insulted by it's teachings. Perhaps he would be by the methods used occasionally through history. Read Emmett Fox's "The Sermon on the Mount". A great opinion on Jesus' message and teachings...But even Mr. Fox is one man with an opinion as is Mr. Ish and Mr. Battles...

[Billy Battles]

I also seen that that is why I provided the second website. Here it says that the only person to investigate his findings is Acharya the Author on the second link here is the link to that.

http://danielle-movie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1674

[Storeytime]

Billy; you started this by questioning whether Jesus was born. Since you say you're not an atheist, you just don't know, and that you have studied both sides of the debate, I'll assume you're interested in finding truth. I can think of one author to recommend to you if you haven't already read some of his work. Try some of Lee Stroebel's books. I'm sure there are others that may be a little more hard hitting, but I'm more familiar with his. In fact, I know of one that is loaded with more historical evidence, but the name of it escapes me right now. I'll try to find it and post it if you're interested.

[Billy Battles]

Is he the one who wrote a Case for Christ? I read the book and seen the documentary.

[Storeytime]

Is he the one who wrote a Case for Christ? I read the book and seen the documentary.

Yes, He wrote all the "Case For ... " books.

[Jeff Westover]

I still fail to see the correlation between Jesus Christ and those who others claim similarities to him, either before or after his mortal mission. These things speak nothing to me because they lack the simple proofs that Jesus possesses.

Two thoughts that immediately come to mind are:

1. "By their works ye shall know them..."
2. "Faith precedes the miracle..."

[JanaBanana]

:)

[lana]

I find it interesting that many post are claiming to have the definitive answer, and tell Billy that he should have more of an open mind about religion, specifically Christianity, yet no one else seems to keep an open mind about his opinions.

Billy I support your attempts to educate yourself on both sides of the topic and that you are comfortable admitting that you don't necessarily have the answer for yourself.

I think that everyone needs to remember that just because something is written and "documented" does not make it absolute truth.
(That pertains to both sides of the arugument)

But that I guess is my opinion :)

[Jeff Westover]

When did anyone claim to have a definitive answer? I see an honest exchange going on here, and a good one, why come along and muddy the waters with accusations?

[lana]

I guess "definitive" was a poor choice in wording. It just seemed that a few post were pretty sure that they were right, I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong. It just seem a little one sided. I am not referring to everyone, just a generalization.

And I am not trying to "muddy up the waters" while I understand that you were having a discussion, it just seemed that Billy could use a little support.

Trust me if i wanted to cause problems there are worse things to say - but i am not that type of person and no one would give me the time of day.

So no offense intended. If I did offend. I'm sorry

[Jeff Westover]

Well if you're going to support Billy add your own ideas. This thread has already suffered enough from people taking it too personally and twisting it in inappropriate direction. But just as much as critics add little to the discussion so do cheerleaders. If you've got something to add, add it. We all love Billy, he's a valued member of these forums.

Billy at least has been consistent. He hasn't said what he said to offend, he said it to share.

His ideas are consistent, logical and informative.

They are also wrong.

So what?

I can accept his wrong idea and much as he can accept my wrong ideas and we're still going to say "Merry Christmas" to each other because we can at least agree on that.

[lana]

Well if you're going to support Billy add your own ideas. This thread has already suffered enough from people taking it too personally and twisting it in inappropriate direction. But just as much as critics add little to the discussion so do cheerleaders. If you've got something to add, add it. We all love Billy, he's a valued member of these forums.




Fair enough, I wasn't trying to say anyone is wrong.
I guess that my point was anything written on any subject is subject to intrepretation and opinion. So personally i don't taken anything as absolute truth (including history books)

[Jeff Westover]

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to say anyone is wrong.
I guess that my point was anything written on any subject is subject to intrepretation and opinion. So personally i don't taken anything as absolute truth (including history books)

Strangely, I think we're ALL saying that in this thread!! (And I like the fact that you want to jump to Billy's defense. He hasn't had a lot of help in this thread and, of course, he's fighting an uphill battle on this topic in this area. I think he's as brave as is he smart. I respect him a great deal and I suspect that is what you were acting on).

[JanaBanana]

But just as much as critics add little to the discussion so do cheerleaders.



Hey but I like being a cheerleader. Ok just playing, "trying" to be funny:-P

[dvdguy]

Rah Rah

[Jeff Westover]

Hey but I like being a cheerleader. Ok just playing, "trying" to be funny:-P

When you've got a talent, why keep it hidden? GO JANA!

[JanaBanana]

2, 4, 6, 8! Who do we appreciate? YOU YOU YOU! Goooooooooooooo YOU!

Good golly can I be quite corny or what? I better get busy doing something constructive, like baking some pies or something?

[dvdguy]

baking & shipping to the admins?:???:

[Jeff Westover]

It must be near lunch time for dvdguy.

[JanaBanana]

Sounds good to me :D

[dvdguy]

tis the season to be baking

fa la la la

[Billy Battles]

just seemed that Billy could use a little support.
Thanks
We all love Billy, he's a valued member of these forums.

First lets me say it feels great to be loved

His ideas are consistent, logical and informative.

They are also wrong.

Possibly. I however would like to remind you the easiest way to hide a lie is between two truths.

[Jeff Westover]

I knew I could smoke you out of hiding...

[dvdguy]

to be fair he did say you were both wrong

[Storeytime]

I hope I have been taken the way I intended on this post. I can relate to Billy because I searched for many years in all kinds of places for truth. I believe I found truth. My post was simply to point Billy in a direction in his search in case he hadn't looked in that direction. I also said that I would post additional info "if he was interested."
Billy's reply to that post didn't express any interest in any further information, so I simply answered his question. I don't ever try to force my views on someone uninvited. It's just that I deduced from his posts he was seeking evidence from all sides, so I gave him a place to look.
Although I do believe that the evidence is overwhelming for the historic proof of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, I agree with Jeff and others that it ultimately comes down to faith, which comes from God.

And thanks Jana for being the cheerleader! We need those too.:???:

[Jeff Westover]

I did? I lied.

[Billy Battles]

I haven't been hiding I have however been very busy as of late.

[JanaBanana]

You're welcome Story!
It can be tough when sharing one's "beliefs"... I know this first hand as most of my family, including my mother are Jehovah's Witness's and they try to the same with me and their "beliefs". Key word there is TRY! If I have questions I need answered, I go to the one place I know will give me those and that is my Bible :D

[Billy Battles]

The Bible huh? Look up the word Elohim. Here we go again...lol

[Jeff Westover]

Heh-heh. Why don't we all study Hebrew?

[whychristmas]

Heh-heh. Why don't we all study Hebrew?

That would be an interesting new sub-forum ;-)

[Billy Battles]

The word Elohim was translated into God, however the Hebrew word for God is El. Elohim is plural. So Genesis should read Gods created ....not God created

[Jeff Westover]

That is absolutely correct. Kinda of changes things doesn't it?

[Billy Battles]

Yes now the question is it for good or bad.

[Jeff Westover]

Definitely for the good. In my mind, it clears up some of the more mysterious or least explained portions of scripture.

[Billy Battles]

I'm sure you are going to invoke the Holy Trinity. I have heard it argued from that point. I have also heard people argue that the Holy Trinity was not "invented" until around 300 A.D. The latter says that the Old Testament was not originally supposed to be Monotheistic.

Just to take this in a whole different Direction I also Have heard it argued that Elohim refers to Aliens. Hey When your trying to find answers for yourself sometimes you find yourself looking at some weird stuff.

[Jeff Westover]

I'm sure you are going to invoke the Holy Trinity.

And you would be wrong about that.

[Billy Battles]

Then what does it answer?

[Jeff Westover]

The Holy Trinity, as some Christians define it, isn't even in the Bible. It is a completely contrived doctrine devised from scripture taken out of context to fit particular sectarian schemes.

Getting this back to Christmas, I believe I've written about this before (http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/christmasexplained.shtml) and addressed it head on. "The Gods", as written of in Genesis, fits perfectly within the context of Christ's own words -- "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, who thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." -- this, as well as other very clear New Testament references, clearly supports the original text (meaning NOT some refined English bible written in modern dialects) and can be explained no other way other than to say more than one Intelligence had not only a hand in the creation of this earth but also of worlds without number.

It also makes a lot of common sense.

Sorry I'm not giving you the predictable argument you were expecting on this point.

I personally believe that we cannot begin to understand ourselves until we deal with the true nature of God. Genesis 1:26 was very clear -- Let US make man in OUR own image -- there's no two ways to define that.

Once over that hurdle, in my opinion, it opens a whole new depth to Christianity for those who have merely followed it out of tradition all their lives.

[Billy Battles]

Sorry I'm not giving you the predictable argument you were expecting on this point.

Never apologize to me for that. Makes me think on my toes. It is just that when I have talked to other people about the word Elohim they always invoke the Trinity.

[Jeff Westover]

I've seen it myself many times and I wonder if they have really studied it or are merely using someone's "quick guide" to pat answers.

[Billy Battles]

Most people don't like to say I don't know, especially when it comes to things like Religion and Politics.

[JanaBanana]

I dont know? :D

[JanaBanana]

Now Rep me please. Just kidding!
Hmmm maybe I need a sign that says, "Will work for Reps!"

[whychristmas]

Now Rep me please. Just kidding!
Hmmm maybe I need a sign that says, "Will work for Reps!"

Maybe you should add it to your sig ;-)

[JanaBanana]

There's an idea.. I thought of that too. lol

[Jane D]

I am coming to this debate rather belatedly, I'm afraid. I used to be a regular contributor but have not been about much this year. When I finally read this thread, however, I was moved to hit the keyboard again. Unlike Billy, I am not an agnostic, I am an atheist and since we are not represented in this debate at all (to paraphrase Jeff, hardly surprising on a Christmas website!) I thought I would add my thoughts. I, like my dear friend Jayish, am a peacemaker and this means that sometimes I avoid confrontation and do not stick my head above the parapet when I should but, since this smacks of me not having the courage of my (strong) convictions, it is time I joined in. I have already outlined elsewhere on this forum how come I can not believe in God whilst still strongly ‘believing’ in Christmas and it links very closely with the way I see life in general as an atheist.

Okay then - I was the child of Christian parents and when it all started to feel very wrong to me in early adulthood I started asking questions and, like many here, doing my research. In just the same way as Christians come to their position of belief (hopefully after thought and study rather than taking it on trust from parents or other authority figures) I came to my own non-belief. My brother-in-law (a Jehovah's Witness) once told me he believes because "nothing else makes any sense", this is precisely the way I feel about not believing. For me, this world of ours is about nature, science and rationality. It is not in any way cold (which is the word people so often link with 'the rational'), it is a beautiful, beautiful place and I rejoice daily at the wonder I see all around me, at the good I find in people, at my own happiness and the love I am able to give and receive. These things I have faith in, these things I hold as dear as my own life. I neither need nor desire anything 'supernatural' (not intended as a pejorative term, I use it in the strict dictionary definition: "of or relating to things that cannot be explained according to natural laws"). I live a moral life which is not forced upon me by the dictates of any religion, but is born - as I believe morality truly is - of my own conscience, common sense and a desire to be a good person. I do not accept that we need religion to make us moral. This suggests we are doing the right thing only because our faith tells us to, whereas I feel that - with obvious notable exceptions, some of whom lay claim to being Christians or members of other faiths - people are basically sound.

And just to clear up one other point, I have faced death in my life (the threat of my own and the actuality of that of a close loved one) and most certainly did not call upon God to help or save me or them. Death, as they say, comes as the end.

To conclude (before you all fall asleep) - Story earlier suggested that Billy consult Joe Stroebel by way of furthering his research. In the interests of an even debate, may I therefore respectfully suggest people read The God Delusion by Professor Richard Dawkins?

[officepro4u]

Mammaduke, Debbie, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Diana:sparkle:

[Annette1990]

I know I'm kind of late getting into this conversation but I feel that I have to get into this topic. 5 years ago I got sick & died 2 times in a time period of 24 hours. When I awoke after 2 days, the doctor told my family he had no idea how I'm still alive. I told them I prayed to God to let me live , now when my doctor & chaplain tell my story they say that I am a miracle of God's healing power. My life is now giving praises & thanks to the Lord for all he has given me since that diagnois.

Everyone has there own feeling about this subject, but I know what happened in my life to make me really realize there is a savior. He is christ our lord, born in the town of Bethleham, in a manger, to the virgin Mary, whether or not if it was Dec. 24th or not isn't important.

Kuddos to you my friend. I to am a believer. It's what works for me and always has. Thanks for sharing such a personal journey you have been through. It makes me keep the faith and have hope even more!

[JanaBanana]

I believe :)

[Jeff Westover]

Jane -- you are the sum of your experiences and you choose to intelligently view life and take responsible for your own actions. I applaud your attitude if only because I find so few atheists with so open a mind and, frankly, so positive.

Just a mammaduke is the sum of her difficult circumstances I believe your own experiences will one day allow you to see things that others, for whatever reason, cannot.

Thank you for your inspiring aside to this conversation -- it adds a great deal!

Jeff

I am coming to this debate rather belatedly, I'm afraid. I used to be a regular contributor but have not been about much this year. When I finally read this thread, however, I was moved to hit the keyboard again. Unlike Billy, I am not an agnostic, I am an atheist and since we are not represented in this debate at all (to paraphrase Jeff, hardly surprising on a Christmas website!) I thought I would add my thoughts. I, like my dear friend Jayish, am a peacemaker and this means that sometimes I avoid confrontation and do not stick my head above the parapet when I should but, since this smacks of me not having the courage of my (strong) convictions, it is time I joined in. I have already outlined elsewhere on this forum how come I can not believe in God whilst still strongly ‘believing’ in Christmas and it links very closely with the way I see life in general as an atheist.

Okay then - I was the child of Christian parents and when it all started to feel very wrong to me in early adulthood I started asking questions and, like many here, doing my research. In just the same way as Christians come to their position of belief (hopefully after thought and study rather than taking it on trust from parents or other authority figures) I came to my own non-belief. My brother-in-law (a Jehovah's Witness) once told me he believes because "nothing else makes any sense", this is precisely the way I feel about not believing. For me, this world of ours is about nature, science and rationality. It is not in any way cold (which is the word people so often link with 'the rational'), it is a beautiful, beautiful place and I rejoice daily at the wonder I see all around me, at the good I find in people, at my own happiness and the love I am able to give and receive. These things I have faith in, these things I hold as dear as my own life. I neither need nor desire anything 'supernatural' (not intended as a pejorative term, I use it in the strict dictionary definition: "of or relating to things that cannot be explained according to natural laws"). I live a moral life which is not forced upon me by the dictates of any religion, but is born - as I believe morality truly is - of my own conscience, common sense and a desire to be a good person. I do not accept that we need religion to make us moral. This suggests we are doing the right thing only because our faith tells us to, whereas I feel that - with obvious notable exceptions, some of whom lay claim to being Christians or members of other faiths - people are basically sound.

And just to clear up one other point, I have faced death in my life (the threat of my own and the actuality of that of a close loved one) and most certainly did not call upon God to help or save me or them. Death, as they say, comes as the end.

To conclude (before you all fall asleep) - Story earlier suggested that Billy consult Joe Stroebel by way of furthering his research. In the interests of an even debate, may I therefore respectfully suggest people read The God Delusion by Professor Richard Dawkins?

[Jeff Westover]

Wow -- now we've crossed a theshold in this conversation. Obviously (to me), we have here a witness beyond the mere claim of faith. Your experiences - tragic in the eyes of some, a miracle and a blessing in the eyes of others -- have given you sure knowledge.

There will be those who in stubborn defense of their beliefs will scoff at your near-death experience (or those of others) as merely a mind game.

You know differently and I know you know differently.

And that, in essence, is what this conversation is about and why all points of view need to be entertained, explored, examined and ultimately accepted.

Jeff

I know I'm kind of late getting into this conversation but I feel that I have to get into this topic. 5 years ago I got sick & died 2 times in a time period of 24 hours. When I awoke after 2 days, the doctor told my family he had no idea how I'm still alive. I told them I prayed to God to let me live , now when my doctor & chaplain tell my story they say that I am a miracle of God's healing power. My life is now giving praises & thanks to the Lord for all he has given me since that diagnois.

Everyone has there own feeling about this subject, but I know what happened in my life to make me really realize there is a savior. He is christ our lord, born in the town of Bethleham, in a manger, to the virgin Mary, whether or not if it was Dec. 24th or not isn't important.

[MissKringle]

wow this got off topic fast,
I decided I might check back on this thread and I think I created a touchy subject though, how we got from A Morning show wondering whether we should downplay the religious side of christmas too Jesus's birth taking up nine pages of argument, anyway, I think it was nine pages wasted (no offence meant, alot of you made great points don't take that the wrong way)
Because we've all got to remember, it might be the most commercialized holiday around, Christmas and Religion is still a personal desicion whether you do or don't believe, do or don't celebrate.
i myself am not religious but I don't think taking the religion out of Christmas is right, it really is the whole point of it. I do believe in Jesus Christ and God but I don't really do much about it, I however set a day aside each year for celebration just like everyone else here. it's my choice to do so and will remain so, the way I think Celebrate and live are all my choices as are your own.